In this podcast, Motley Fool producer Rick Engdahl comes to the other side of the glass to reflect on what he's learned from 10 years of Rule Breaker Investing and a career at The Motley Fool.
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This podcast was recorded on June 11, 2025.
David Gardner: Today, we're pausing our usual programming to celebrate someone who's made every episode you've heard over the past decade sound a little clearer, flow a bit smoother, and dare I say, shine a whole lot brighter. Rick Engdahl, my friend and producer extraordinary is retiring after 10 remarkable years of producing the Rule Breaker Investing podcast. Whether you've known his name or not, you've experienced his handiwork, his meticulous editing, his creative touch, sometimes his voice, always his boundless patience in turning my sometimes rambling ideas into crisp, polished episodes. We're here to celebrate Rick Engdahl this week only on Rule Breaker Investing.
A horse of a different color, for sure, this week, a special podcast. It's not every week or even year that your original producer, the OG of Rule Breaker Investing rides off into the sunset. Ten years after we started this podcast together in July 2015, here in June 2025, this special podcast, a happy and sad podcast we bid adieu to Rick Engdahl. Rick is retiring from Motley Fool after 25.5 years of service to Fools everywhere. Helping make the world smarter, happier, and richer. That means that Rick is also retiring from the Rule Breaker Investing podcast this week, as well. My special guest is Rick Engdahl. Rick has brought I think it's a top 10 list this week to shower listeners with wisdom, humor and appreciation. We'll reflect on what he's learned, what we've all learned as a consequence of working together for a long time investing returns compound. At the Motley Fool, we celebrate the power of compounding returns driven by the stock market. Yet many other good things in life also compound like human relationships, good partnerships, wisdom, appreciation, these things compound too. The stock market typically takes about seven years to double. Some of these things compound faster and deeper.
I'm excited in a minute or two to welcome Rick as he brandishes his show notes and his top 10 list. But first, as I shared at the start of this year, my 2025 book, Rule Breaker Investing is available for pre order now. After 30 years of stock picking, this is my magnum opus, a lifetime of lessons distilled into one definitive guide. It's the playbook for anyone who dreams of beating the market, living richly and having a laugh along the way. Each week until the book launches on September 16, I'm sharing a random excerpt. We just break open the book to a random page, and I read a few sentences, so let's do it. Here's this week's page breaker preview, a few sentences from the middle of the book and I quote. Way back in the book's introduction, I mentioned the most common question from new listeners of my Rule Breaker Investing podcast. What's the right number of stocks for my portfolio? I said, then no such number. We'll talk about this later. Well, later has arrived. That's this week's page breaker preview to pre order my final word on stock picking, shaped by three decades of market crushing success, just type Rule Breaker Investing into amazon.com, barnesandnoble.com, or wherever you shop for great books. To everyone who's already pre ordered, thank you, that means a lot. I'm going to stop beating around the bush. We need to do this. Rick, welcome.
Rick Engdahl: Well, thank you, David. It is a delight to be here. I'm on the wrong side of the glass. It's really uncomfortable, I have to say.
David Gardner: [laughs] You've got headphones on and a microphone, and you look like a podcaster.
Rick Engdahl: I know I'm supposed to be the one who's invisible.
David Gardner: [laughs] Well, you've done a lot this week. Not at all invisibly, Rick. You've helped design this show. I mentioned ahead that you have a top 10 list in mind. We'll share together some memories, some reflections on this podcast, I'm sure on investing in life, as well. But I think you have something else to get started with. What are you calling it?
Rick Engdahl: Well, first of all, I want to take a little bit of objection to your introduction as generous as it was. You used that word retirement, and you told me how much you didn't like that word. No, I'm not sure I like it either. I'm not retiring. I'm perhaps leaving my role as a professional Fool, but I'm still very much an amateur Fool and always will be.
David Gardner: Shame on me, Rick. I do apologize, but the truth is, you're just turning the page to your next chapter.
Rick Engdahl: Right. Of course, learned a ton by being here, and that has shaped my life over the time that I've been here. You would ask for a top 10 list of things that I remember or reflect on or have learned with regard to the podcast, and it seemed to break down appropriately into a couple of points about business, a couple of points about investing, and a couple of points about life. That's how I've organized the show.
David Gardner: I love it. When you say a couple, you mean three. Am I right? Three plus three plus three.
Rick Engdahl: That's nine. Then there's one to tie it all up at the end to give you your full 10.
David Gardner: Fantastic. Well, I'd say, without further ado, let's get started, Rick. I know you're not kicking it off with point number 1. You're kicking it off with?
Rick Engdahl: Some of the things that I really enjoy about producing the show, I just want to rattle a few off. For instance, special effects. I got to say that adding special effects to the show has been a delight. It's not every investing show that allows you to create campfire sounds. Who else can come to this? It starts with just the fire. Maybe there's a river nearby. Maybe the wind blows. Maybe a corcus popped. Harmonica, I just had to figure out what else can come to this campfire. It's always a fun thing to do. What's the best Halloween shriek for this particular story that bro's going to tell [laughs] or how many different recognizable time machines can I come up with from the movies? [laughs]
David Gardner: Well, I also want to point out that since you post produced those, A, you're making all the choices. It has always been your creativity and your sense of humor. But, B, I never knew what was coming, really. When we're at the campfire, I'm like, somebody else has joined the campfire, and it's not just a person who joins, they bring a sound effect with them, except I have no idea what it's going to be. At different points, I feel as if I didn't react appropriately to probably some funny sound effects you presented because I didn't know what was coming.
Rick Engdahl: Well, I'm also just entertaining myself when I do this, and sometimes throwing in obscure things that hopefully one listener out there will say, like, that's Bill and Ted. Awesome. [laughs]
David Gardner: Also, all of the sound effects for the Market Cap Game Show. At this point, since we do it four times a year, we tend to reuse those. You get more efficient over the course of time. If you rerun the laundry over and over, you get really good at doing the laundry. Anyway, I've really appreciated all the sound effects that you've brought, not just to the Market Cap Game Show, but every other episode. Not every episode has sound effects. I think that would be inappropriate if we had the clown horn going constantly. I'm not sure we'd have any listeners left. I think you've been very thoughtful in terms of where you place them and when, and I appreciate that.
Rick Engdahl: Well, with regard to the game show, the fact that we created it, broke it, reshaped it, [laughs] reworked it means that those effects have evolved as well, but also just seeing that show evolve has been a really fun thing to see. From Matt A starting the show as a solo contestant to Aaron Bush breaking the show to Emily Flipping and others coming and making it better all along. That's been fun evolution, as well.
David Gardner: Did you mean world champion Emily Flipping?
Rick Engdahl: Yes. World champion and club lulu, or whatever [laughs] from Survivor. Our very own survivor.
David Gardner: It's true.
Rick Engdahl: She wins all the games. Let's see. What else? I've enjoyed naming the episodes. That's been fun.
David Gardner: Thank you.
Rick Engdahl: Again, April the Giraffe comes to mind and [laughs] pursued by a bear. How many strange, weird references can you throw to the title and still have them makes sense? That's always fun. But the best thing about editing the show, I have to say, is taking out the 3, 2, 1s, David. [laughs] Now, listeners may not know.
David Gardner: I hope they don't.
Rick Engdahl: I hope they don't that every once in a while on a rare occasion, David may restart a sentence with the phrase 3, 2, 1, go. It's my job to remove the 3, 2, 1 goes from the show. I would say, I don't know how many shows have we done now?
David Gardner: If you do 52 weeks a year without ever any skips or no repeats, then you have over 10 years, about 520-ish shows.
Rick Engdahl: If I do some back the napkin math here, number of 3, 2, is ones per show. I'd say we're somewhere in the realm of, I don't know, 15-20,000 3, 2, 1s I've removed over the years. [laughs]
David Gardner: You can add, I think, four or five because I've already done four or five in this recording. Although again, thanks to you and our new producer Part, those won't be evident, I don't think to our listeners, this is something Rick figured out about me early on. We used to do an NPR radio show, so National Public Radio has such attention to detail they go for perfection. We would heavily edit things. Now I just edit myself on the fly as I speak, and yeah I restart. Three, two, one, go. Rick, have you ever woken up in the middle of the night screaming?
Rick Engdahl: [laughs] No, I have not.
David Gardner: Three, two, one, go.
Rick Engdahl: I have to say, 3, 2, 1, go is something I have to watch out for, but I rarely, if ever, have to take out an mmh or argh or a like or a you know when I'm editing your audio.
David Gardner: It all balances out in the end?
Rick Engdahl: Absolutely.
David Gardner: Before we move on, Rick, I wanted to just call out briefly the April the Giraffe story because longtime listeners will know this, but I know a lot of people who just heard that, and they're wondering still, what the heck are we talking about? For 30 times over the course of the history of this podcast, I picked five stock samplers. We'd group five stocks at a time every 10 weeks or so and pick five stocks. Sampled from Motley Fool Services stocks I'd already picked. Just like you go into whole foods and they're like, would you like a little bit of this piece of cheese here? Hoping you'll buy a large block of it. We've always given samplers out over this podcast. One of them, I made acrostic. Each of the five stocks, one started with A, the next P, it spelled out April, and it was April. It was all just a fun, silly game, but it didn't on its own, really have enough oomph, I think, for a title. What did you discover as April became a giraffe?
Rick Engdahl: Well, there just happened to be a viral thing going on on the Internet at that point in time where a giraffe was giving birth on camera on the Internet. April the Giraffe was born, and it was kismet. It all came together at the right time.
David Gardner: Kismet is a great word. Five stocks for April the Giraffe was born.
Rick Engdahl: We'll come back to those five stock samplers a little bit later.
David Gardner: Great. In fact, I will update later the performance of five stocks for April the Giraffe. I haven't looked at it in a couple of years, so it'll be fun to check. Well, Rick, I know you've brought three points about business, three, about investing, and three about life, and maybe one more to cap it. I say we get started. You've got business in mind first. The lessons that you've learned maybe from this podcast or your time at the Motley Fool about business. What's point number 1?
Rick Engdahl: Well, my background coming to the Fool was one of a singer songwriter, an artist and craftsperson. I was not at all business savvy. Even though I was a freelancer of sorts, I was not particularly good at the business side of things. Anything I've learned about business I've learned here, and the same will be true of investing actually, when we get to that. One of the things that I've come to really appreciate is the idea of conscious capitalism, and that comes through both your speaking, but also the guests that we've had, John Mackey and Raj Sisodia who wrote the book, Conscious Capitalism. Many of my peers and friends are very disenchanted with capitalism as are many people in the world right now because we've seen the worst of it, the worst of the worst in all the headlines with wealth disparity and greed and people in the limelight that maybe are not the best representative. It's easy to lose sight of the great things that our economy has brought us. I think it's important to highlight what business looks like when it's done right. Also Paul Rice, who was on the show recently with his book, Every Purchase Matters, talking about fair trade, also a very important thing. Also our guest Matthew Dowd, who was here a few years ago, I think, who brought the concept of conscious capitalism to his role in government. There's just so many good things that come out of the stakeholder philosophy and making sure that everybody is creating win win situations. That's the way organizations can function at their best.
David Gardner: I agree, Rick, you're rocking right now. There are four tenets of conscious capitalism. In fact, I've made that habit number 4 of the Rule Breaker Investors to follow the four tenets of conscious capitalism. The one you're rocking right now they call it stakeholder orientation, but it's when you're oriented as an enterprise, as a leader to win for all your stakeholders. We say win win win or win to the sixth sometimes. You're trying to win for everybody all the time. It's not easy, is it? Because every customer wants to pay less, every employee wants to be paid more. Every partner and supplier wants to be right up there in the front window or at the top of your website. Then the environment sometimes has hopes for your business, your local community in other cases and shareholders, by the way, shareholders would like you to double their stock overnight. Any leader who's a conscious capitalism leader is thinking about trying to creatively problem solve to create wins for all of those, and it's such a beautiful model as you say, Rick, when it works.
Rick Engdahl: When I am in conversations and people are pointing their fingers at capitalism, I do like to bring it up, and I do like to point out that so much of what we take for granted has been brought to us by good businesses.
David Gardner: You're so right, and I really appreciate you leading off with your first business point right there. It's something near and dear to our hearts. I've got a whole chapter about it in my upcoming book. It's we've talked a lot about at the Motley Fool, and we've done our best to be a champion of conscious capitalism. I think sometimes we nail it and sometimes we don't, we're all human. That's another thing before we go on to point number 2, Rick, is that just realize everybody's doing their best generally out there. I think a lot of people are cynical or doubt others, but I think part of the conscious capitalism spirit is the assumption that you're trying, and I'm trying. We're not always going to win. Not every stock pick is going to win either, but giving people the benefit of the doubt and leading with trust, I think, are also beautiful aspects of conscious capitalism.
Rick Engdahl: Most people are good people. I say it all the time. Well on to the second point, another great thing that I've learned here working at The Fool for 25 plus years, but also that has shown up in our podcast is company culture. When we've had Lee Burbage and Kara Chambers on to talk about what makes the Fools culture work so well back in the day, when we were in office culture, back in the hey day, I should say. They had so many great ideas of how to make us want to come to work and be a part of this organization and point us all in the same direction and have fun doing it at the same time. It was great to hear them talk on the podcast because at the same time, I was experiencing these things happening at the office. I was happy to hear those things shared, but I was also happy to experience them. It taught me a lot about, again, how a company ought to be run. During COVID, it moved into how to make a remote company run, which is a much harder ask, I think. I have to say that I missed the in office days, it's not quite the same as it was, but they still do a great job of trying to make all of that work. I think it's worth going back and listening to those episodes and remembering that it's culture that makes a business.
David Gardner: Really appreciate that. The other thing about culture is it's not reflected anywhere in the financial numbers of companies. There's no line for it on the balance sheet. There's no line for it in the income statement, and yet you just underline how important it is to the success of a business to get the best out of your employees. That's one of the reasons I think Rule Breaker Investing works, Rick, is because we're looking at things where there are no numbers for the things that matter most. It's not just true of culture, it's also true of a thing like brand. There's also no number for brand, and yet, few things are more important to the long term value of an enterprise than a great brand and building a great brand, whether it's Apple, the greatest brand in the world, or other businesses like Chipotle and its brand or even in a whole another place in the world, Mercado Libre and what its brand means to Latin America. Those things, Rick, are not accounted for, but I'm glad you underlined culture, especially for new listeners, we have a series. If you just google great company culture or Rule Breaker Investing, you'll hit our series with Kara and Lee as Rick is referencing. You produce all of those episodes, Rick, and they would present a top 10 list of ways to improve your corporate culture. We took different angles. We never duplicated the points previously made. In fact, we did 10 of them, Rick.
David Gardner: Company culture tips, volume 10. The last one was our 10 greatest hits. If anybody wants to just skip the other nine and watch the greatest of, that was November 9, 2022, a long running series, one of the many that we've done on this podcast, with your help, Rick. Well, thank you. I love number 2. What's Business Lesson number 3?
Rick Engdahl: Well, you referred to it just a moment ago and that is everything about brand, which is what drew me to The Fool in the first place. I liked the logo. I liked the idea of The Fool. I was a medieval studies major in college and so that drew me to the company, but it surprised and baffled me a bit to think that this is an investing company that's making these Shakespearean references. What is it about this place? That's what raised my curiosity and brought me into The Fool in the first place. It's what kept me here ever since, because I love the idea of this financial brand that actually is relatable, that has a sense of humor, that can actually speak to people who do not have the financial background, and that became so important to me that I became a huge advocate of our brand, and listeners may not know that that's part of how I spent my 25 plus years here was working with brand. As far as the podcast goes, one of my favorite guests of all time is, of course, Roy Spence, who came and talked to us several times, and I've got to meet him in person talking about purpose and purpose driven companies his book, it's not what you sell. It's what you stand for.
David Gardner: Exactly.
Rick Engdahl: Is not just a description of what a purpose-driven company is. It is a how to guide for how to create and live by your purpose in your company. I was really happy to be part of the process of bringing that philosophy to The Fool, as well as working on our core values and so on. Brand became a very important thing to me here at The Fool, and Roy and there's been plenty of others too who have contributed to my understanding of what brand is and how it should work.
David Gardner: Thank you, and truly, in addition to the roughly 500 podcasts you've produced for me, you've produced hundreds of others across The Motley Fool for years and years. This podcast is but a small part of Rick's work, but I'm glad, Rick, you underlined your work on brand has nothing to do with podcast, although it also has everything to do with podcast, but your work on our core values committee, you helped revamp our core values. You were part of the team that brought the idea of Motley being a core value at The Motley Fool. Would you briefly explain what a Motley is for those who may be hearing this for the first time, something I really love that you developed?
Rick Engdahl: Sure. I didn't develop it alone, of course. There was a team of people working, and we were trying to articulate our core values in a way that were both memorable and meaningful. When we were done, we felt like, there's always something missing and someone would raise their hand and say, what about this? What about that? Well, that doesn't matter so much to me, but what about this? We realized that maybe we needed an open blank, like, fill in the blank here. What else do you think you're bringing to the company? Of course, that quickly became the Motley. The Motley core value is, what is it that you bring to the company that makes your contribution different and helps you to make the company better?
David Gardner: That's right. Across hundreds of our employees, really thousands now, if you think about 30 years as a company, many a Motley Fool employee has stated with a word or a phrase, what means a lot to them. Sometimes they've got a story they can tell in 30 seconds to break your heart, or sometimes they change their flavor of the month every few months. Everybody has a different approach. But your Motley is simply the value that you hold dear that you are bringing to our company. I've often described this as a big stained glass window, so when a new employee comes, she brings her own unique piece of glass uniquely shaped. A unique hue to that piece of glass. What's a word or a phrase that she's bringing to us and strengthening what we do with her presence? That was the team that you were on, Rick. I love that core value. I've shared it many times. I hope other companies are copying you/us with that, because I think it's a brilliant idea, so inclusive and also so much about storytelling and a little bit of human flourishing mixed in there too. Thank you for that. You've done a lot of things over 25.5 years, Rick Engdahl, and I do love that you came to us as a medieval studies major. I think we've just wrapped up business lessons. Do you have any capper or additional thing you want to share there?
Rick Engdahl: I'll just say one more thing about brand, and that is, it's not just about core values and purpose statements. That is one leg of this three-legged stool. That is your brand identity. This is what we believe about ourselves, who we want to be, who we aspire to be. The next leg of that stool is our brand image. That's what all of you out there, your listeners think of us. That's what the public thinks of us. Do you even think of us? Do we exist on your mind? How do you feel we're doing the world? That's important for us to measure and to understand. That's why it's so important to get feedback from listeners and members. The third leg of that stool is the brand experience, and that's a sum of all touch points, the places where we can connect with you and make sure that those two visions come together, that you're seeing us the way we see ourselves, and there's so many different touch points in there. The role of brand strategy is to bring those things into alignment.
David Gardner: Thank you. Well said. A little short course there from somebody who studied brand a lot. Obviously, brand is something we look for in the companies that we recommend, the stocks that we pick. Usually, whoever is the most innovative brand in an industry immediately captures my interest. Whether or not we'd ever recommend that stock or buy shares ourselves is a separate question. But if you just had a short list of the best brands, industry by industry, and built your portfolio only from those companies, I think most of our listeners would just beat the market with that alone. That's how important Rick, I think, brand is. It is indeed the fifth trait of Rule Breaker stocks. I just call it strong consumer appeal. Another way to say that is brand. Rick, well, I like all three of your business lessons. Number 1, conscious capitalism. Number 2, you spoke about the importance of culture, and number 3, we just covered it, brand. Conscious capitalism, culture, and brand. Three business lessons from my long time, not exactly retiring podcast producer, Rick. Let's move on now to the investing section, because I'm not sure I remember your first day at The Motley Fool back in 1999, but you didn't come to us necessarily excited about the stock market or looking to pick your own stocks or build your own portfolio.
Rick Engdahl: Definitely not. I came here with a lot of debt, both from spending money to record CDs that I still have in my attic to this day, to paying off student debt, etc. I did not come here because I was interested in finance or investing. I was interested in design and I was interested in this new thing called the Internet that was just developing. I came as a front-end developer and really, back in the day, we were inventing the Internet. But being around all of our fantastic analysts and realizing how relatable they actually were, they weren't like that other team off in the other office talking in words that I didn't understand. It wasn't long before I realized that, maybe this is for me after all. Let me give it a try. I made some mistakes, of course, along the way, and later on, managed to have some success as well. The first thing I want to bring up about investing that I've learned directly through this podcast goes all the way back to your five-stock samplers, and I loved this series. I know a lot of our listeners loved this series. The thing that really stood out to me about this was that it was a great demonstration of how to use Motley Fool services. We have this great universe of vetted stocks that our analysts have already looked at. What are some creative ways to go and cherry-pick among them? Is there a theme? Is it a basket? Is it just rolled up at random? If you're working within a universe of stocks that are already vetted, then you can bring your own character and your own ideas to those companies and pick the ones that make sense for your portfolio. That's how I use the services, and that's, I think, how we exemplified using the services with those five-stock samplers, and I really enjoyed everything that I learned through those.
David Gardner: Thank you, and I know it's something that we are regularly asked to bring back, and perhaps in some way, shape or form, we will. Since I'm not actively picking stocks anymore at the Motley Fool, for this reason, I haven't kept it up, but I'll say one thing we've kept up, Rick, is we've kept tracking these stocks, because that was 150 stock picks, five at a time, 30 times over six years, and now, really, the first one was in 2015, and here we are in 2025. There's an opportunity now to learn the real lesson, which is the benefit of time and what it does for investment performance. You and I were certainly very proud to put those 30 five-stock samplers out there. We were proud as I did the last one to reflect on the performance. The performance was very good across 150 stock picks in a world where people say would just be luck to beat the stock market, something obviously we've completely disagreed with for years and years at The Motley Fool. Our average performance of the 150 stocks was 76.9%. That was against the S&P 540%. We basically were beating by 36.9 percentage points from one pick to the next, and if you add up all of that Alpha across 150 picks, we really walloped the stock market, and Rick, as you mentioned, we had some clunkers as well, because, of course, losing to win is such an important theme.
Rick Engdahl: It is a testament to not only your stock-picking prowess, David, but also our phenomenal analysts, Jason and Tim and Emily and David and Jim, like all of them. They've all done such a great job of building this universe of stocks to choose from.
David Gardner: Regular voices on this podcast, of course. Love featuring people like Andy Cross, Emily Flippen, and Jason Moser, whether it's for a market cap game show or just a campfire story about stocks. Yes, it takes a village to do what we've done. Seventy-seven percent versus the market's 40 was good, but it's years later now, and of course, I've got it all in a spreadsheet, and I keep following them. I have two fun facts for you, Rick Engdahl, and everybody listening. The first one is what now is the average return of each of those 150 stocks? It's gone from 77%. It's now 237%. The average pick made in our five-stock sampler, the average one has now more than tripled 237%, versus the market, which is more than doubled, 117%. We're now up more than 100 percentage points per stock across all 150 of those stocks. The story should keep getting better and better. This is such a cardinal lesson of Rule Breaker investing. Perhaps, Rick, in the year ahead, I might start going back and doing some review of paloozas to start teaching these five and 10-year lessons, because we only ever scored these for three years each, and you and I both know we prefer to invest for three decades, not three years. But one fun fact before we move to your Investing Lesson number 2, guess what has been the single best performer, historically, among all 30 of the five-stock samplers. Which one would you guess?
Rick Engdahl: Please tell me it's April the Giraffe.
David Gardner: It absolutely is. It is five stocks for April the Giraffe, picked on April 19, 2017, and they were Axon Enterprise, Grupo Aeroportuario Del Pacifico, which is a Mexican airport company, not a huge performer. Not bad, though. ResMed, Intuitive Surgical and Live Nation Entertainment. Of those, only one is losing to the market. That would be our Mexican airport company, but I'm happy to say that Axon Enterprise is now a 33-bagger. It has carried, not on its own. One of these stocks is a three-bagger, another is a five-backer, another is a four-bagger. This is, again, the best performing five-stock sampler. But as a group, they're up 901.4%. That's exactly a 10-bagger, basically, since 2017 against the market, by the way, up 158%. So 900/158, five stocks for April the Giraffe.
Rick Engdahl: You know which direction April the Giraffe is facing?
David Gardner: I don't.
Rick Engdahl: Up and to the right.
David Gardner: Of course, I do. I should have. Let's move on to Investing Lesson number 2. Enough bragging.
Rick Engdahl: Well, I'm going to brag on your behalf this time. I guess I'd call this bullet. Keep on swimming. This is Foolish philosophy. This is consistency. This is losing to win. At The Fool, we always preach the gospel of the long-term, ignoring the headlines and volatility of days and weeks and months, and just really keeping our eyes on the distant future. But it's not easy, and it's hard to watch drops happen. It's hard to live through them. I think, especially as a business when we're constantly doing stock-picking and we're constantly talking on podcasts and everything, it's hard to not talk about the immediate. But I have found that by following your advice, David, you're the most consistent person I know as far as we don't change anything. Regardless of where the market is, where it's going, we just keep on swimming, and that has been so useful for me. Because I came here without an investing background or interest of any kind, I don't really know any other way, and I'm just very grateful that I happen to stumble to your feet to learn these things, and it's been a great benefit.
David Gardner: Well, that's very kind of you, Rick. Obviously, we're both rocking Dory. I think it was a blue tang fish from Finding Nemo, which, by the way, a great Pixar movie. Pixar, a great stock pick for Motley Fool services until, unfortunately, Disney bought out Steve Jobs' Pixar company. We've done well holding Disney's stock, but I think if we'd been able to just hold Pixar all the way through, we might have done even better. But thank you, Rick. I so appreciate that. You're talking some about beginner's mind, this thing where if you go into something as a beginner, sometimes you need to reinvent that. You need to see things with fresh eyes again, not be jaded or just be too habitual how you view something or the world. But when you are actually a beginner and actually bring beginner's mind to something, it's really great the lessons that you don't have to unlearn. For you, Rick, to be able to say, hey, let's just keep adding. The market will go up into the right over time. We don't know exactly when it'll go down. It will go down some of the time. It doesn't feel good. Just keep swimming. I'm so glad that that message found its way to your heart and your mind, and I hope your portfolio.
Rick Engdahl: I do sometimes think that our services could be simpler. They could just be, here's a bunch of great stocks. Buy them, and we're done. What else would you like to talk about for the next few decades?
David Gardner: I actually think that's a fairly good way to shortcut things. A lot of our members love the game of it. I'm one of those. I love following the stock market every day, but it's not like I buy or sell every day, not nearly. I typically only buy a few new stocks each year, I rarely sell, so you're right. If you're actually looking at the Movie of Activity, it's not a very interesting movie to watch, but if you do enjoy following what wins and what loses in business, even stocks you'd never buy, just learning lessons from them, I think it's endlessly interesting.
Rick Engdahl: My final point in the investing category here is that I think that maybe I could write your book, David. I might title it differently. I think I'd call it "How to Invest without Math". Because one of the things again that I've learned here at The Fool from you and from other analysts, is to find out where you have an edge. It's not going to be with traditional analysis, certainly not for me, but really not for anybody. That information is just out there, and I can rely on our analysts for that information, just like, is this company stable? Is it running well? The basic numbers and stuff. I don't really need to do that work myself. For me, thinking of the six traits of a rule breaker, how to be a rule breaker, how to think, and what's the philosophy, and also how how to manage the portfolio, those things that are really going to be the core of your book coming up. Those are the things that are a little more in my wheelhouse. It's trusting my gut feelings, trying to pick companies that reflect my vision of a future, as you've said. Things like the SNAP test or Dark Clouds, I can see through, these are the things that I feel like I can bring my own judgment to the world of investing. Thankfully, I have, again, The Motley Fool to trust for the more mathematical side of investing, and I have this vetted universe of stocks to pick from, and then I can bring that. I think that served me well over the years.
David Gardner: Well, since you and I have kicked stocks around off air at different points, I know you've got some great stocks in your portfolio, and I think you have some low-cost basis, and I think you've held them and done really well, which makes me so happy, Rick. But I do think that Dark Clouds, you can see through, and the SNAP test and the COLA tests and other things that longtime listeners, regular listeners will know, and others will be mystified by the language we're using. But I really appreciate you pointing out that it asks you to make a choice, make a decision. It's not just a number or a right or wrong checkbox. You actually have to sit there, Rick Engdahl, and think, will Netflix be able to compete with HBO?
If HBO starts with all this content and Netflix didn't have any of its content, but Netflix does have streaming and HBO is trying to get its own streaming, who's going to win? Those kinds of questions, I think a lot of us can have opinions on, and even if we're wrong some of the time, you're either right or you learn. That opportunity, I think, to feel agency, to be making choices, this stock, not that one, you had a good experience at Cava. You didn't have a good experience at this other restaurant. Maybe that's the reason to add Cava to your watch list. It's something we all can and should do. In fact, the first few words of my book that you definitely could write for me, Rick, are everyone is an investor. I truly believe that, and I hope everyone switches on to that. The earlier we do in life, the better we're probably going to do, and it's really sad for me to think, if you ask people to show off hands in a room, raise your hand if you're an investor, people who don't raise their hand because I want them to know they should. I think the Motley Fool and our brand and your work, Rick, through podcast and spreading the word, I think we've gotten a lot more people switched on to realize they are an investor and they should lean in and your choices do matter. Thank you for underlining that.
Rick Engdahl: You win or you learn? I definitely have learned a lot. I have several stocks that are down 90% or more. But sometimes you win and you learn. If I can just brag a little bit, is that OK? Can I name a few? My portfolio has Nvidia up a 50 bagger, Netflix up a 40 bagger, Amazon and Shopify, 20 bagger. I could go on.
David Gardner: That is absolutely fantastic, Rick.
Rick Engdahl: This is normal. This is how it's supposed to work when a folksinger invests for 25 years, right?
David Gardner: I would say that you are a renaissance man. You are an investor, and you're a living demonstration to anybody listening to us who, I think a lot of people who are listening to us do think they're investors, but they may have friends or family who don't. Your example in your story, Rick, we can't provide all the actual numbers, but just what you painted with your palette right there, 50 bagger, 40 bagger, a couple 20 baggers, you've got others you could talk about. A lot of people, I think, are having their eyes open to how actually to invest.
Rick Engdahl: That's why I named them. It's not to brag. It's to say, if I can do this, y'all can do this. Anybody can do this.
David Gardner: I love it. We're about to move on to three life lessons for Rick Engdahl but, Rick, just summarizing, you let off point number 1 with the five stock samplers and what they teach and what they've shown and how much fun they've been to watch and also giraffes sometimes get born on the Internet. Number 2, just keep swimming. I think you illustrated that. I don't have to go back over that. You did that very well. Finally, number 3, you can write my book, which you might well be able to. I think the overall point is, you've really internalized this. You've got to know this stuff well, not only that, but you're an advocate to others around you. As I hope many a listener hearing us right now is you are a beacon of light for others around you to help them understand how actually to invest. I love all three of those lessons. Rick, let's move on to three life lessons. What you got number 1?
Rick Engdahl: Well, the first thing I have to say about just enrichment of life through this podcast has to be the guests that we've had on the show. Such great luminaries, James Clear, Stephen Pinker, Seth Godin, Shirzad Shamin, Dan Pink, Candice Millard, Les McEewen, Kevin. I've learned so much from these people. I bought their books and I've read them.
David Gardner: Love it.
Rick Engdahl: It's great to be present for these conversations, and it's also great to see these lessons put into action by you in many cases, like the cold open of the show came to us from Priya Parker, like how you reshaped the show based on these conversations and how I've been able to change some things that I do based on these conversations. I only schedule surgeries in the morning. Thank you, Dan. Made some small changes to start a new habit. Thank you, James Clear. The guests have just been tremendous on this show, and I have nothing but thanks for them and also to you for bringing them around because they just bring such great insights to anybody who listens.
David Gardner: I love the lesson. Another way of putting it is it's the company you keep. There's a great passage. I've read this in different places at different points. I'll just lightly summarize by saying, if you want to lose weight, hang out with people who are losing weight, and if you want to do better with your money, hang out with people who save more than they spend, and the list goes on. I have a friend whose father in law is a judge in the State of Maryland and he oversees juvenile court, and he gives a talk to the kids as they get out of detention. They've been detained for some period of time. They're about to back out into the world at large, and he gives him a talk, and he basically says, I already know which of you I'm going to see again and which I will never see again. Of course, you don't want to be seen again by the judge. You don't want to return. He already knows he says to the kids, which ones are going to be back. Show me your friends. I think it's such an important lesson in life. You just nailed it with life lesson number 1. Yeah, we're after the best people we can find who going to help us lead better lives. We're all here to help each other. Rick's helped us for ten years. Rick's helped me for ten years. These luminaries have helped all of us for years, and will continue to do so because it's the company you keep.
Rick Engdahl: Second point for life lessons is your favorite subject, David. I'm going to go into politics here. That is what I think was a very important thing that you brought to the show, which is the core values of the United States of America. I'm a fan of brand and core values and these things, and so to see those put into practice applying not just to business, but to other ideas in life, I think, was a really powerful idea. This country is divided in so many ways, as we know, why not start the conversation with defining what we hold dear about it? Doesn't that make the conversation more meaningful? If we disagree on how to get there, can we at least agree on the same goals? It's such a powerful tool, and it makes me think, where else can we apply it? But I think in this day and age, especially having a conversation that begins with what are the core values of this country we live in is really powerful.
David Gardner: Thank you. I really appreciate that. Coming from the person who helped bring Motley to the Motley Fool as I would say signature core value. That means a lot. Thank you, Rick. Yeah, I think the beauty of the values talk is it tends to align people because whatever you think are America's five core values, I bet there's a couple overlaps with ones that I think, and any that we disagree on doesn't mean anybody's right or wrong. It's an opportunity to understand or hear from somebody else rather than have a politically charged conversation, just have, you think that being enterprising and business is one of America's core values. A lot of people would say, is that really true? At least for me, I would say, yeah, it is. I would say that enterprise, I think America's number 1 in the world, and what explains that is the past few centuries of great businesses that you and I can be invested in leading the world and giving us better products and services with better pricing, more transparency, and unbelievable amounts of innovation over a few centuries. Yeah, I would say being venturesome, being enterprising, business is, but I can easily hear somebody else say, I prefer generosity in place of that. I would then ask them why they think that. How did they arrive at that conclusion? That was another past conversation we had on this podcast, Rick. That was years ago, but it was with Nick Epley, the author of the book Mind Wise. What he likes to do is he likes to simply ask people, how did you arrive at the conclusion that you just gave me? Rather than say, you're right or you're wrong, you just asked them, how did you arrive at that conclusion? A beautiful question, which reminds me, Rick, of another great guest to your point earlier, Warren Berger, who's written all the books about asking beautiful questions. It's all tied together, but I really appreciate your non political political point.
Rick Engdahl: Yes, and maybe Motley needs to be there among the American core values as well as we all come to life in order to help facilitate that conversation around things that we think differently about.
David Gardner: I love that. I'm going to add that. I have my five American core values. We've talked about them before. I'm not going to do it right now. I think there's a sixth, and I think you just named it 'cause that's a beautiful, inclusive conversation you can have with anybody else, just as we do at Fool HQ, asking somebody, what is their Motley? I love that. Thank you.
Rick Engdahl: My final point in the category of life, you know it's coming. I can't get through this podcast without saying games, games, games, and game designers as well. It's been so nice to have an opportunity to be a fly on the wall as you talk to people like Richard Garfield and Rob Davio, Elizabeth Hargrave, Reiner Kisia? Come on. Stegmeier. All these amazing designers, it's been so fun to meet them and to learn from their thinking. I also really enjoyed meeting T Nwen when he was here to talk about what a game even is and why we like them and why they matter, and it all actually culminated. My own kid is going to college now. Game design is high on their mind. All of this stuff fit in with home conversations as well. You have introduced me to some of my favorite games Terraforming Mars, for instance. I can't get it on the table often enough, but you've introduced me to some really great games.
David Gardner: I just played that last week. It is a beast of a great game. Rick, really, from the earliest days when I first met you, we were gaming some at Fool HQ, I remember. Not everyone's a gamer, I think everybody should be. Everyone is an investor. I think everyone should be a gamer. But even if you're not, I've always enjoyed connecting with the gamers among us in any group. Rick, you are one such. You and I have been able to share that passion over a game table at different points in the past, but on a semi regular basis with games, games, games, that holiday podcasts we do each year, some of the game designers you mentioned and game thinking. I so appreciate that I've been able to do this work with a fellow gamer for ten years. Also, Rick, you're pretty good at games. I'm not sure I've kept stats on this, but I'm pretty sure you beat me more than I beat you. It's not just if you like games, you're pretty darn good at them.
Rick Engdahl: I tend to be a good beginner at games. I win the first round, but I never win again after that.
David Gardner: That's not how I remember it.
Rick Engdahl: I think that's why I like playing new games all the time.
David Gardner: Well, summarizing Rick's three points about life lessons learned through this podcast, his own reflections, point number 1, the beauty of a great interview and finding the best people that we can in life. We try to put him behind the mic on this podcast, but just seeking out the best person in any room or the best people that you know or spending time with people who are doing the thing you want to be doing, those are all great reasons to connect with our fellow humans, and we've tried to do that on this podcast. Rick, number 2, your USA core values point. The beauty of values, whether a corporate context that helps unite employees or values many of us recognize through maybe our church or maybe our university, where you have strong cultures that you can point to values. But what about for our nation? Just having that conversation with people, even if they completely disagree with you is a way to open doors at a time where I think that really helps. I'm so glad you underlined that, Rick. Then, of course, point number 3, Games. Well, we got three lessons from business, three from investing, Rick Engdahl and three from life. I think that counts to nine. We call this out as a top ten. What's point number 10?
Rick Engdahl: Point number 10 is the importance of mentors in life. I have three mentors who have shaped my financial life. Again, as someone who doesn't really come from a background of thinking about finance, it doesn't really care about money. I'm happy sitting in my living room playing guitar and yet I've come to value so much the advice and perhaps unwitting mentorship that I've gotten from these three people. The first, of course, is you, David. You've taught me everything I know about investing. As stated earlier, not only how to pick companies, but how to be an investor, how to diversify a portfolio. How not to react to the market, how to buy consistently and rarely sell, how to be rationally optimistic, and how to just keep on swimming. Everything I know about investing really comes from you, and, of course, the team of analysts who work here at the fool, but it's your philosophy that really stuck.
David Gardner: Thank you. Thank you very much, Rick. That means so much to me.
Rick Engdahl: Second mentor is got to be Robert Brokamp, who taught me everything I know about managing household finances, how to sweat the big stuff. It's not about the coffee or having lunch in the afternoon. It's about the house, it's about the car, it's about the education, it's about the big stuff. Take care of the big stuff. You can enjoy this small stuff. Finding a way that works for you, I'm not someone who budgets myself, but I am someone who automates. My paycheck gets split up and allocated 15 different ways before I ever see it. It just takes one good optimistic day to carve off all of that savings, and after that, I never have to see it or feel it.
David Gardner: It's great. Pay yourself first.
Rick Engdahl: Pay yourself first. So many lessons from Bro, not to mention the encouragement and the empathy and the friendship and support over the years. He's just an excellent mentor, and the third has got to be Morgan Housel, who really taught me what this money thing is all about. What is it for? What is wealth? When is enough, and what is really important to me and my family? Morgan probably doesn't know it, but I've really treasured knowing him over the years, and I can't get enough of his words of wisdom from his books and his podcast and from talking to him in person back in the day. Wealth is being able to do what you want, when you want, with whom you want, as Morgan says. I think once you start to put that together, you realize that it's not a rat race. You're not always trying to compete to get to the top of anything. You're just trying to get to the place that works for you. Because of these three mentors, Bro, who taught me how to manage my money, David, you, who taught me how to invest for real, and Morgan who taught me to define what's really important, I'm able to take this step away from an incredibly rewarding career and into my next adventure. What adventure that is we'll have to see. Time will tell. But I don't know. Keep an eye on senseofwondermusic.com. Maybe I'll update that site one.
David Gardner: Excellent. Senseofwondermusic.com. Happy for a good URL plug, Rick. Well, first of all, thank you for ten memorable lessons. I love how you underlined Robert Brokamp and Morgan Housel, who have added so much value to many a foolish life and even people who aren't fools. These days, Morgan, having now sold more than seven million copies of his wonderful book, Psychology of Money, and he's written another great book, same as ever. He has another one coming. He just throws off value to everybody connected with him. But so have you, Rick, and you've been the unseen hero behind hundreds of hours of this podcast and many others besides the quiet force, ensuring each guest feels welcome, each idea gets shared, and each listener receives the best possible experience. From your early days, when podcasts, is this true? Yeah, they were just becoming a thing when we started at the Motley Fool right through to today's, fantastic. I'm going to call it 500 something Rule Breaker Investing podcasts. Rick, you've been there. You've been guiding, improving, encouraging, and always caring deeply about our work. Thank you, Rick. Thank you for ten wonderful years for your immense skill, your heartfelt commitment, and your friendship. It's not just the sound waves that are better because of you. I think it's all of us here behind the mic and in the audience alike. Rick Engdahl, I wish you a joyful and fulfilling next chapter. May it be as bright as you've made this one for all of us. Fool on, Rick Engdahl. Fool on.
Rick Engdahl: I can't thank you enough. Fool on.
John Mackey, former CEO of Whole Foods Market, an Amazon subsidiary, is a member of The Motley Fool's board of directors. David Gardner has positions in Amazon, Apple, Cava Group, Intuitive Surgical, MercadoLibre, Netflix, and Walt Disney. Rick Engdahl has no position in any of the stocks mentioned. The Motley Fool has positions in and recommends Amazon, Apple, Axon Enterprise, Chipotle Mexican Grill, Intuitive Surgical, MercadoLibre, Netflix, Nvidia, ResMed, Shopify, and Walt Disney. The Motley Fool recommends Cava Group, Grupo Aeroportuario Del PacíficoB. De C.v., and Live Nation Entertainment and recommends the following options: short July 2025 $120 puts on Live Nation Entertainment and short June 2025 $55 calls on Chipotle Mexican Grill. The Motley Fool has a disclosure policy.
